![]() ![]() And I feel that way even more strongly about algorithmically-driven - kara swisher It wouldn’t bring out the best in me and it would instead bring out the worst. ![]() My intuition is it wouldn’t be good for me. I’ve made a few other decisions in my life - like, for instance, I don’t drink alcohol - for a similar reason. And I worry about using something that brings out the worst in me. And so I decided very early on that I’m not perfect. And we had the experience of amplifying the lizard brain even on those, where people would get pissier than they otherwise would. But there wasn’t anything like upvoting or downvoting. It was somewhat similar to what we’d call a comment roll these days. No, I - going back before the term social media existed or even before the web existed, as early as the 70s, there were some prototype designs like Usenet that some folks might remember. But I want to stick for a second with social media. We’re going to get to the Metaverse Jaron - don’t worry. And when those things happen as we speak about social media, there’s a feeling of, if I can call it, a meta hopelessness. They become a little more irritable, vain, contemptuous, clannish, dismissive, disrespectful - fearful, above all else. Yeah, I mean, I think the pattern is that people tend to take on some of the worst qualities that are associated with the constant excitation of what we can call the lizard brain. And even our discussions to try to get out from under it tend to get ruined by it. But to see it actually happen, of course, has been the tragedy of my career and my whole generation of computer scientists. And it’s such a weird and strange and dark turn in human history foreseen in some dark science fiction, certainly. Because the world is held in a vice grip by the algorithms of a few companies that operate on this bizarre business model in which they make money from people who hope to manipulate other people using behavior modification techniques. And in a way, not much has changed since that book was written. It’s funny, because to me, it doesn’t feel so early. Because it was quite early and prescient about a lot of things. ![]() So I’d love to get your reflection about that book. Obviously, the last time you and I talked was after the release of your 2018 book, if you can believe it, “Ten Arguments for Deleting Your Social Media Accounts Right Now.” You don’t have any social media accounts yourself. So I guess I want to start by talking about social media. There is so much, and it’s so good to be here to talk to you. Jaron, welcome to “Sway.” There is so much for us to talk about. So I wanted to talk to Jaron about that, and why Mark Zuckerberg’s vision of it may not prevail. But with these companies pouring billions of dollars into the race for the Metaverse, it’s still not clear what it would actually look like - or if people will use it at all. Facebook, Snap, Epic, Roblox, and more are all trying to stake a claim. Jaron works for Microsoft these days, which has gone all-in on the global race to build the Metaverse. But over the years, he’s become a prominent critic in the tech world of social media companies in particular, or “behavior modification empires,” as he likes to call them. He first showed up in the 1980s and was one of the earliest pioneers of virtual reality. He’s been in Silicon Valley even longer than I have, and I am really old. I’m Kara Swisher, and you’re listening to “Sway.” My guest today is Jaron Lanier. When you walk in a room, do you have sway? Reality Jaron Lanier on the Wild West of the metaverse and why Facebook should be paying you. Transcript The Metaverse: Expectations vs.
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